SXSW Interview: James Gunn, Director of Super
One of the best films I saw at SXSW this year was James Gunn’s ultra-violent take on the super hero origin story. Super covers much of the same ground that last year’s Kick Ass did, but is much more successful in my opinion. You’ve already heard Jonathan raving about this one, so take our word for it and see it as soon as you can.
A: I don’t know. I never thought about it. Nobody ever brought it up before. They’re both about marriages gone wrong, and I definitely have a lot of commitment issues myself. I suppose that works in there somewhere. Frank seems like a stalker, but I’m not sure he necessarily is. Grant in Slither is definitely an extra terrestrial stalker but it’s on a much bigger level. So, who knows…
Q: There’s a lot of entries into that self reflective comic book scene now. Things like Kick Ass or Special. Were you aware of that or wary of that?
A: I was aware of it because I wrote my script in 2002, so it was around before all those things. The first thing I heard about was Special, because Special was written after that. My movie was out there and we actually had financing through a different company at that time. I heard of Kick Ass through Mark Millar who is an online friend of mine. We’ve been email buddies for a long time. He wrote me like, “Hey, what are you doing?” and I was like “I’m getting this movie made called Super” back in 2004. He’s like, “What is it?” and I’m like “blah blah blah”, I told him what it was and he’s like, “Oh fuck, I’m writing a comic book that’s kind of like that”. I was definitely wary of it. It’s like “This sucks. Kick Ass is being made into a movie. Is that gonna mean that we’re irrelevant?” But in the end, the stories are so different. Our story is about a guy who is on his own spiritual quest and he just happens to wear a superhero costume during it. Really the story could be told without the superhero costume. It’s just gravy and frankly it probably helps the movie get more attention than it probably would otherwise. It really is about the guy and not the costume.
Q: Where did the concept come from? Are you a big comic book fan?
A: I’m a huge comic book fan, to this day. I’ve read comic books ever since I was a kid and I still read almost every comic that comes out. I love comic books. I’m enamored of super heroes, I’m interested in how that interplays with our own lives. I think Super is a lot about pop culture. We view superheroes or celebrity or whatever as being a part of that pop culture world. It’s something beyond us that we’re not a part of. This is about a guy that tried to enter that other world that’s so impossible. With some degree of success.
Q: You said you wrote the script in 2002, why did it take so long to get into production?
A: There’s a number of things. Number one: in 2004, I had Chuck Roven producing the script that did the Dark Knight movies and Scooby Doo movies. It was a little esoteric. They wanted me to cut back on the violence a lot. That was a little bit difficult. But the biggest thing is, there was this company that was financing it and there was a list of people that could play the role that they would ok to green light the movie. There was a lot of actors that wanted to play the role, but the only person I could see playing the role at the time was John C. Reilly. But he wasn’t considered a big enough star at the time to get the movie made. So I couldn’t agree on an actor. So we were still going to make the movie, basically, but we hadn’t gotten to the point where we could cast the right actor. I needed somebody that could do the comedy, that could do the drama, that was big enough that he was physically threatening, but was also goofy enough that he could be picked on by his fellow short order cook at the diner. It was hard to find somebody like that. At that time I wrote the movie Slither, which I was going to sell and just make a few bucks so that I could go off and make this movie for no money. I went out with Slither on a Thursday night and on Friday morning Paul Brooks, who was producing it, called up and said “Yeah, I want to green light the movie and I want you to direct it” and I was like “Ok”. So that’s what I did, and that put a hold on things for a while. And after Slither I wasn’t even sure if I was ever going to direct another movie again. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to. I wasn’t sure if it was worth it to me. I started doing web stuff because it was a lot more simple. It’s hard making a movie, man. It’s like, you just lose your life. Really. I like being alive. I like having friends and I like going out and I like watching other people’s movies and all these things I can’t do for a year while I make a movie. Then it comes out and it’s like, “So what.” People love it, but I don’t care. I don’t get any joy out of you liking my movie. That’s not true exactly. I like when people like my movie. But it’s like as a kid growing up I was like, “Man, I REALLY want to make movies and have everybody love me and have people like my movies and go to film festivals and be interviews by a bunch of people at a table.” but none of it brings me any joy. Not in real life. It just doesn’t. I like making the movies, sometimes, but it’s also hellish to make a movie. So I’m a very confused individual. It really wasn’t until my ex-wife, Jenna Fischer, called me up one day. We’re still very very good friends. She said, “What are you doing with Super? Why aren’t you making that movie? I really love that script. That’s my favorite script you’ve written and I really want you to make that movie.” I said, “I don’t know. It’s a little esoteric. It’s weird. My manager doesn’t want me to make it. I’m not sure.” And she said, “Well, have you ever thought of Rainn as Frank?” I had known Rainn for five years and we had always gotten along well. We had a comraderie, and it was like, “Wow, that works.” From that moment forward I felt sort of called to make the movie. I had my heart in it and it made all the difference from other things I’ve done in the past because I feel really good about the movie. I would love for other people to love it, but if they don’t that’s ok too. It was a great experience, and having those other actors put themselves into the movie so completely for literally no money. I mean, Liv Tyler got paid seven thousand dollars or something to do this movie. For them to do all of that for me and for this project was a really great experience. Them and also people like Steve Gainer the cinematographer, we had a real connection on set and he understood exactly what I wanted. We worked together perfectly. Tyler Baits did the score, he did the score for my other movies, he’s a great partner. It was a really good experience.
Q: He calls himself the Crimson Bolt and he walks around with a pipe wrench. I’m curious what inspired you to include those elements?
A: I don’t know where the Crimson Bolt came from. It was just the first name I thought of. I remember in my first draft that I wrote, he went through different names of what he was going to call himself and somehow he arrived at Crimson Bolt. One reason it’s helpful was that I did make another super hero movie a long time ago called The Specials and it’s very difficult to find super hero names that aren’t already claimed. Our main characters in The Specials all had different names when we went to get the copyright. There is a character named Mock that was originally named Exile, but there already is an Exile. The Strobe was originally Laser Man. I had to change all their names. So probably something that influenced me was that I had to come up with a name I didn’t think another super hero was named. I kind of just went with it. Also, Frank’s not the most eloquent guy in the world so he’s not gonna come up with the greatest name. The pipe wrench is simply something I would not want to be hit with.
Q: The thing that struck me about Super was that it is really dark and fucked up but it is also a really optimistic film. It actually kind of does believe in the possibility of changing the world.
A: I think one of the things that drives me in telling stories or in art in general is finding the beautiful in this big mass of ugly. So much of people, especially when you live in Hollywood, is really ugly stuff. I guess I am an optimist in a pessimist brain, if that makes any sense. I believe in people. I believe in the innate goodness of most people in this world and yet I am a damaged soul like a lot of other people. I have my own demons and things I struggle with, so I can’t be told that life is beautiful through a normal positive thinking book or through a hallmark movie. That doesn’t work for me. The language that works for me is the language of fucked up cinema and literature and comic books and things like that. To find the beauty I really need to go through a darker channel than most people. I think there are a lot of people like that.
Q: There is some really frank violence in the movie, but I was laughing my ass off. Do you want the audience to laugh?
A: Here’s the thing about Super, that’s the fun of the movie. When he’s saying his prayer at the beginning of the movie, that’s one where it’s always a weird audience. That’s maybe my favorite scene in the movie. It’s so so so sad and so funny at the same time. There’s always people laughing, but then other people get mad at the people laughing. That’s exactly what that scene is intended to be. It’s intended to be all those things mixed up together. You can laugh at it or you can feel sad. That’s up to you.
Q: So the drama can be either way, but is it the same with the violence? Like when he’s bashing someones head against a fireplace, are you laughing when you write that or just thinking this is a great way to kill somebody?
A: I think he goes a little far in that and there is something humorous in the fact that he just keeps smashing his skull after the guy is obviously dead. He’s gone pretty far. I guess there’s a funny element to it but it’s also really sad. I feel like that moment is another moment where you are watching the Crimson Bolt inflict violence on somebody, like the moment with the guy in line, where you’re going, “I guess that’s alright.” I don’t know. That’s my reaction to it but I don’t know if that’s laughing, exactly.
Q: You mentioned one of the difficulties in getting this made was your producer or whoever saying you might want to tone it back a little bit. It’s a little bit strange or a little bit too violent. Is there anything that you really wanted to get in this movie that you really had to scale back on or did you just go all out?
A: All out. I stupidly tricked the producers. At the beginning I said, “Look, the people are going to like this movie because it is extreme or their not going to like it. So if we start pulling back on things that are extreme that just means we are pulling back on what some people are going to like about it and we are going to make it a nothing movie.” So I tricked them. They went with that and I got to do whatever I wanted, basically. And honestly, I had this cast behind me that was all signed on because of the script and who were doing it because of me. I did this movie for nothing. We were all doing this movie for nothing. The reason we are doing it is because we want to make the movie the way we want to make it. To make a movie for a couple million dollars with that kind of talent attached is a rare thing.
Q: Frank’s hallucinations or visions are really cool stylistically. I was wondering what inspired them.
A: I had the finger of God touch my brain one time. You think I’m kidding, but I’m not. So that’s what that was inspired by. The tentacles didn’t happen but the finger of God came through the roof and touched my brain. That part is real. I really like the mix of the spiritual and the visceral. In the script it even says “Cronenbergian”. I really like that mix. It’s something I’m interested in. There’s a book called “The Varieties of Religious Experience” written by William James in 1904 which is about people who have religious experiences. A lot of religious leaders had these spiritual awakenings. Is it something from a problem in your brain? Whatever that is, I have it because I’ve had visions since I was a kid. I think that’s a big part of what the movie is about.
Q: Was it hard taking actors like Rainn Wilson and Ellen Page, who throughout their career have pretty well defined themselves to the point that you know what to expect, and subverting what we expect from both of them? Was that a difficult thing to do and was that one of the reasons you wanted to cast them?
A: It wasn’t why I wanted to cast them but it was something I was wary of from the beginning. Rainn said to me from the very beginning, he said, “Listen, if I do something that’s a Dwight-ism just pull me aside and tell me I’m doing something Dwight-ish.” There were two times on the movie where I said that was Dwight. He can fall into it very easily. He’s been playing that character for a long time. The main thing for Rainn was to have a sense of vulnerability there because Dwight maybe has a sense of vulnerability because he’s an idiot but he’s not really a vulnerable character at all. He does everything not to be vulnerable, whereas Frank is a very vulnerable guy. To really bring out that vulnerability was the important thing for him. With Ellen, from the beginning, the reason she was attracted to the script was, she said to me, “For years I’ve been asked to play these characters who are wise beyond their years. These snarky teenage girls who say all these little things to one up all the adults around her and this character is the exact opposite. She’s a twenty two year old with the maturity of an eleven year old. She’s completely wrong in every way, and fucked up and says whatever is on her brain.” It’s a much different character. An immature character. So that’s what Ellen brought to it. This energy and crazy madness when she is usually much more low key. Yeah, I was very aware of who they are and I think for them as actors it’s important for them to create other sorts of archetypal characters who are no the characters they are associated with.
Q: Another great performance was from Nathan Fillion. How easy was it for him to come on board?
A: It was easy. Nathan is my good buddy, we hang out a lot. Nathan would just do whatever I asked, he’s my good pal. I thought he would be perfect for it. I think when I first wrote the script I thought it would be good for Bruce Campbell.
Q: I don’t know if he could do the long hair…
A: The long hair was Nathan’s idea. He came in and we fit him for the costume, and that costume cost more than the other costumes because it’s actually kind of a real super hero costume with the fake muscles, and he says, “You know, I think it would be great if I had some long Jesus hair.” Nathan’s funny, I love working with Nathan. I love working with these people who are my friends because it’s hard making a movie and to have people like Nathan and Michael Rooker around, these guys that I’ve been friends with for a while, it’s really nice. Nathan always, whether it’s in Slither or PG Porn, he always brings something beyond what I expect to the role. He always goes above and beyond the call of duty. He really is one of the greatest film actors around and it was great to work with him.
Q: We talked a little bit about the mixture of comedy and pathos, but it also struck me that this is an IFC film but also has that Troma aesthetic.
A: That was always in the script. I didn’t rehearse the movie at all. We didn’t have the budget for that. That was always a part of it. To have real people in these situations that have exploitation elements. I wanted to keep things real and grounded and have that element there. In Troma movies, and Lloyd would admit this, the acting is usually pretty atrocious. In Tromeo and Juliet, when I was doing that movie, I tried to write for bad actors so that the bad acting would actually be a part of what we enjoyed in the movie. In Super I didn’t want to deal with bad actors. I wanted to have the performances really good. I think it works.
Q: Did starting off in Troma help you to be able to do things very quickly?
A: There’s no doubt. Troma taught me everything about that. It taught me how to think where one side I have a director side of my brain and one side I have a producer side of my brain. The producer side doesn’t fight the director side, it helps the director side of my brain. If I was doing things just as a director, I would lose shots because I’d be so focused on getting the one scene the way I want it to be. I would take too long in the day and not get what I wanted. I had to, through the experience of making movies now for a number of years, learn how long it takes for me to do something so I can take less time on things that are less important and take more time on the things that are more important. I need to give the actors room to breathe at times. That needed to happen. I needed those guys to do a good performance. I needed Rainn to do a good performance on the prayer. I needed to give some of those things more time. I needed the right amount of time to get all the shots I needed for the end of the movie with all the gunfire. There’s a lot of shots in comparison to the rest of the movie. I had to give the appropriate amount of time and if I just relied upon an AD or a line producer to schedule that time, it’s gonna go all wrong. It really has to be me that does that because only I know what the movie is.
